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jstack ♡ 88 ( +1 | -1 )
english/QGD I am trying to prepare for a possible game against an expert who loves to play the english. I was wondering if white has anything better to play than a transposition to QGD after 1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 d5. I also need to know if white plays a move other than 2. NC3 and I follow up with 2..d5 if it is reasonable to expect a queens gambit type of position. I would rather not play a line in the english against this guy if I have a choice. He could probably play the english in his sleep. I would feel a little better about playing QGD with him. I eat breakfast with Kasparov every mourning and he tells me the stories about the queens gambit. ( I have his DVD on the queens gambit). So at least I know a little bit about the opening without much effort. I am hoping to find a way to get there. So after 1. c4 e6 2. (some move by white) I say 2..d5 "Excuse me sir can you tell me where the queens gambit declined is?"
kewms ♡ 49 ( +1 | -1 )
If White wants to avoid the QGD, he'll play 2. g3 or 2. Nf3, not 2. Nc3. After that, there are lots of potential responses to 2...d5, and a huge number of potential transpositions. You could end up with a QGD, but also a Catalan or an English. Visit the Opening Explorer at -> (or the game database here at GK) to get some idea of the possibilities.

Because there are so many potential transpositions, anyone who plays the English regularly probably sees the QGD quite a bit.

jstack ♡ 150 ( +1 | -1 )
Katherine That was not really what I wanted to hear but I kind of suspected that might be the case. I was hoping to find a way to play the queens gambit after 1. c4 because after watching Kasparov's DVD it seems black has a clear plan. I often have a hard time figuring out what I am supposed to be doing when I play against the english. I have tried playing the dutch against it, but my opponent played a line in the english which was not covered in my dutch book and I had a hard time figuring out what I was doing then too. I am thinking about playing a reversed closed sicilian against it as I play the closed sicilian regularly as white. However, I started studying it and it seems more compliated than the closed sicilian I play as white...something about white having an extra move changes the game. In short I am trying to find something against the english either (A) is similar to something I already know or (B) has a clear plan that is easy to follow. Keep in mind I am lazy when it comes to opening preparation. I prefer to spend my time studying tactics, endgame, and middlegame ideas as I feel this is where my game needs the most improvement. I don't want to memorize anything. I just want to play moves that make sense. I guess I could just not worry about preparing specifically for the english, study tactics, play 1..f5 and hope for complications.

thanks for the reply Katherine
ccmcacollister ♡ 13 ( +1 | -1 )
If you can tap into the games of Stephen Gerzadowicz , you'll have more than you want to know about such fluid openings :))
ganstaman ♡ 154 ( +1 | -1 )
Anglo-Dutch If white wants to avoid the QG, you can't really force him to play d4. But I don't have much experience with those types of positions anyway.

I love the Dutch, and think it's much better played against 1.c4 than 1.d4. This is because it avoids most annoying gambits that white can play and allows black to develop into his normal Dutch set-up.

One thing I like about the Dutch is that you don't really need to memorize lines, depending on how you play it (what is there, the Leningrad, Stonewall, and IZ I think?). With the Stonewall, you are locking up the center and allowing the e4 and e5 squares to be used as knight outposts. With other Dutch lines, you are developing your pieces to allow you to play ...e5 at a favorable time. Regardless of which lines you play, you are generally developing pieces towards the kingside where you will expand your pawns and begin an assault.

I haven't read a book on the Dutch and just knowing that basic info has helped me so far. Maybe I would do better if I memorized a few lines (especially in those gambit lines...). But I feel it's easier to just get all my pieces in place and then figure out how to actually break through. If you play over a lot of GM games with the Dutch, you can get a better idea of the ideas in the Dutch so that it will be harder to throw you off by deviating from the book. That would probably help more than my post. (I'd suggest using since you can see what other people think of the games and openings, something that's helped me a lot.)
kewms ♡ 54 ( +1 | -1 )
FWIW, I usually play KID-like plans against the English. Nf6, Bg7, O-O, push center pawns as necessary to restrain White's center. Play for an eventual pawn break at f5 or e5. There are lots of transpositions, but this setup is pretty solid and you should get something playable out of the opening.

But then, I play the KID against 1.d4 also, so I'm pretty familiar with the positions.

On the other other hand, the QGD is perfectly playable for White. Can you find a collection of your potential opponent's games to see whether he plays into it or avoids it?

kewms ♡ 10 ( +1 | -1 )
And one more thing... If you really want a Queen's Gambit, how about 1. c4 d5? That sort of forces the issue....

jstack ♡ 39 ( +1 | -1 )
KID I also used to play the KID a lot and I generally did very well with it. I switched to the leningrad dutch because I got tired of playing against the anti indian systems such as the trompowsky and torre systems. For a while I tried to meet the english with a KID type set up and I did okay if white played d4 at some point, but if he never plays d4 I have trouble putting a plan together.
jstack ♡ 97 ( +1 | -1 )
More about my opponent The way my opponent plays his english system is very frustrating for me. It seems like no matter what I do I can't find a target to attack. He often leaves his king in the center for a long time but I could never figure out how to open lines for attack. He often never castles eventually placing his king on f2. I tried castlling queenside and attacking in the center and on the kingside but he was able to organize a queenside attack before I could organize anything significant. I actually had to sacrifice my queen to stop mate. Its hard to explain why I had no counterplay. I'll try to remember the next game we play and post it here. But probably my difficulties have more to do with the 600 point rating difference than with the opening. There will also be at least one other opponent who plays the english. He is only 200-300 points higher than me so maybe I will have a chance of executing a plan. lol Anyway, I probably need to figure out something to do here against the english.
ccmcacollister ♡ 177 ( +1 | -1 )
jstack ... I think your last post answers your Question in the blitz thread, should you play for a postional game? I'd suggest NO. Imagine trying to figure this out in 10 mins instead of Before Next Time. I say that in good faith, as I am not much for positional play myself and never play the English.
From playing against it, I still say BL cannot be stopped from equalizing if WT does not play d4 ... that only those lines can present significant problems. I may be wrong. :)
It seems to me that your opponent is saying, 'Do as you wish, and please hang yourself in the process' . There may well be nothing drastic to be done vs such a flexible set up. Just dont hang yourself. If you find your sweating about "having nothing" , just ask What does my opponent have? If you bide your time and play solidly, soundly, he is not getting what he wants either ... which is for you to commit and allow him to counterattack in a Hypermodern way. Maybe thats all he can do well?
As it progresses something will present itself or not. Often with all the more violoence for the delay. And if you are not painting things with a bit of dark brush; and you really do have No Counterplay? Well, better start doing what He is Doing!!
PS... There are Nimzo_Indian lines with e6 and Bb4 that might discomfort him a bit. The ...b6 Nimzo would seem like a good thing to try to me. If he Lets You Be to do what you want, well you get what you want. See if he Will give you e4 forever and ever. [From this line also, you have chances to transpose to a Dory Defense where the ...Ne4 is followed up with ...f5 to support it. Sounds familiar? You bet! ]
I dont think a QG can be forced. But this is the next best thing to a Tchigorin isnt it? Better for me. Never could play a decent QGD tho.
far1ey ♡ 51 ( +1 | -1 )
Speaking of the English... This is a bit off the topic but i've allways wondered why the English isn't very popular in comparison to E4 and D4. If the Sicilian is so strong for black then why can't white play it with the "extra move" and get an even better position than black would in the Sicilian?

This is kind of the same logic behind the Bird's Opening, where white plays the "strong" Dutch Defence as white with the "extra move".

Would appreciate responce as this is something which has been bothering me for a while.

ganstaman ♡ 78 ( +1 | -1 )
a few things I don't play the English or the Sicilian, so what I'm about to say I can't back up, but here's what I've heard: when the English is played like a reversed Sicilian (ie 1.c4 e5), the extra move forces white to decide how to develop too early. That is, in the Sicilian black is doing well down the move because he can react to white without revealing his set-up first. In the English, white often doesn't have a great way to spend that extra move.

Also, white doesn't have to respond with 1...e5.
I know nothing about this opening, but I think it's supposed to be sharp and not allow white to play in as safe a fashion: 1.c4 b5?!

Ok, I just did 2 minutes worth of research. 1.c4 b5 may be bad for black. Better may be to play 1...e5 and later in the opening gambit away the b-pawn. Either way, it's gotta be fun.
far1ey ♡ 2 ( +1 | -1 )
Thanks Thanks Gangstaman.
jstack ♡ 202 ( +1 | -1 )
English without d4 I was looking at the forum on and they had a discussion about playing against the english. -> I pasted part of the discussion below. Comments are encouraged.
Member # 548

posted June 23, 2006 03:00 PM
My favourite thing to face as White is when people try to play King`s Indian Defence setups against my English Opening. Everyone seems to think ...Nf6, ...g6, ...Bg7, ...d6, and ...0-0 as the opening moves are acceptable autopilot against 1.c4. The result is White can set up a favourable Botvinnik* virtually unopposed. Black must move the Knight to get in ...f5, which is a waste.

As an English Opening devotée, albeit a very weak one, I think this line is best and I play it with both colours:

1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 Bb4 4. Bg2 Nc6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. O-O e4 7. Ng5 Bxc3 8. bxc3 Re8 9. f3 e3 10. d3 d5

You can try playing 9...exf3 but I don`t think this is as good as the "Karpov Gambit", pushing to e3. This is a common theme in these lines by strong Grandmasters.
Important tip is to remember to play ...e4 before taking the Knight on c3! Otherwise, when you push ...e4, White can play the Knight to d4 and it will be guarded by a pawn. I`ve actually had someone fumble this move order before, which is nice for White.

I think the stuff coming from 1...e5 are best, even though I don`t play 1.e4 as White. A lot of people are all excited about this Shirov 2.Nc3 Bb4 stuff, but I don`t think that`s so great, all White has to do is play 3.g3 and avoid all the messy stuff (though 3.Nd5 is probably more sharp and better try for advantage for White, if you`re interested in trying this you might look at 3...a5!? instead of 3...Be7 which is what Shirov prefers).

* A Botvinnik:

Er, well I can`t figure out how to take a picture of a ChessBase diagram to put it up on the Internet.

Pawns at c4, d3, e4, g3. Knights at c3 and e2. Bishop on g2. Castle. Play for a quick f4 and set up a nice pawn duo.
This is actually pretty nice against King`s Indian attempts, because White gets in f4~f5 faster. Yes, out of the English, White can get a direct attack on the Black King. If you`ve ever had this happen in your own games as Black, you`ve messed up!